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Seagull 1963 / D304

Discussion area for watches, clocks and all other timekeepers.
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pgcity
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Seagull 1963 / D304

#1

Post by pgcity » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:38 am

This watch has had a storied existence in many forms. I will try to post here, information gleaned primarily from WUS on this topic when I get the time. Pictures etc will be posted along as I go.

To recap here's my original post https://www.manontime.com/viewtopic.php?p=32035#p32035

There are many homages/replicas/reproductions/fakes with the same movement. Probably HKED's homage comes close to the original Seagull D304 with its Star Trek logo. Try Googling for Seagull D304 instead of Seagull 1963. Youtubers seem to be unaware/ignorant strangely on this detail of the original vs the rest.

The first reissue in 2010 was 10,000 pieces while latest reissue from Seagull seems to be in 2018 with about 5500 pieces.All watches are individually numbered. The 2018 watch release even has a QR Code on the caseback to verify its authenticity as there are far too many versions by too many people. The rumor is that Seagull keeps for itself the best quality movements while it sells lesser ones to others.

Generally microbrand owners seem to report that they buy ST19 in larger quantity to cover warranties or get them QC'd/inspected/regulated for a week or two before putting them in cases. This sounds to me like a perfect watch where you "buy the seller and not the watch" to ensure you do get it replaced/fixed if and when an issue crops up. I've never bought anything from LIW but he seems to have good feedback from what I've read, so while it is a homage and not the "real" thing, I suppose you're buying his post sale support as his prices are much higher then others for these.

There has been some changes to the box/pouch and freebies included compared to previous release. EOL outlet on Ali Express seem to be selling authentic version(about USD 500) but whether they are an AD or not is not clear to me. Here's the link to EOL outlet and some discussion on them on WUS.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32852615014.html . The discussion https://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/sea-g ... 397-3.html

Here's 2 links I suggest anyone interested in the watch, read before buying:

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f67/seagu ... 99250.html

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/authe ... 67821.html
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#2

Post by TheJohnP » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:18 pm

Thanks for posting this!
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#3

Post by yinzburgher » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:19 pm

I was seriously considering buying this the other day but the price went back up before I got around to it. That was despite hearing multiple times that a large percentage of these are not authentic. But I've never put the time in to research this like you have. Thanks for the info and the links. I'm adding pics because that is what nearly got me to buy one. If anyone has has any experience with the watch or vendors that sell them, please share.

Image
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Image
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#4

Post by pgcity » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:52 pm

yinzburgher wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:19 pm
I was seriously considering buying this the other day but the price went back up before I got around to it. That was despite hearing multiple times that a large percentage of these are not authentic. But I've never put the time in to research this like you have. Thanks for the info and the links. I'm adding pics because that is what nearly got me to buy one. If anyone has has any experience with the watch or vendors that sell them, please share.

Image
Image
Image
Most welcome. Trust me, i know the feeling. I was researching this for weeks before deciding to wait. The cream dial, blue hands overall with that red seconds hands and gold indices shouldn't work on a watch but somehow this one pulls it off. The pictures above are of the 1963 and in a sense looks "prettier" then the D304 i think.
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#5

Post by pgcity » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:57 pm

Edit: this and subsequent posts are a work in progress and incomplete till I think it's enough and this will take some time. Once again, the information below is not first hand knowledge but rather from what I've looked up and read from various posts so you may wish to cross check as well.

A few things you will notice from the first 2 links I posted is that firstly we are talking about 2 separate watches that are same but also different.An easy way to differentiate is the red star logo( 1963) vs the Star Trek Logo( D304 and HKED's homage) on the dial. The 1963 used to go for about USD 100-150 while the D304 for USD 350 from Seagull itself.

Another thing to note is the same movement and case shape/design is in use on the 1963 by all the variants. So to call something out as fake is really hard when comparing the 1963s with each other. Keep in mind, when shopping for the 1963, you want to "buy the seller and not the watch", unless you are willing to risk it. If it's D304 however, then there's only 1 homage in keeping with the Star Trek logo and that's HKED that I know off.

1. Is it 19/21 Zuan/Jewels?
The original Venus 175 had 17 Jewels however the current ST1901 has 21 regardless what is printed on the 1963 dials:

As posted here https://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/seagu ... 89937.html
"The 19 zuan and 21 zuan versions both contain the same movement. However, the actual number of jewels is 21. As someone suggested in an earlier reply the 19 zuan was probably mentioned for nostalgic reasons. As you might or might not know, Stef mentioned that the original movement was based on a Venus movement (probably Venus 175). The Swiss movement manufacturer sold some old machinery to China in the late 50's/early 60's. They probably cloned the movement and might have made some minor changes to it. It's hard to determine which jewels have been added, since we have no original 60's movement to compare it with. The Incablock-like part might have been added to the movement in later years, but that's not for sure."

=========
2. Where can I get an authentic enough/homage/decently supported D304?
HKED
If you wish to get the closest homage to the D304 today, it'd be HKED version with the Star Trek logo. HKED/Eddy Tse is a well known WUS forum member(F71 Emperor dive watch) who also collaborates with EMG Watches i.e the Nemo Diver,DL63 chronograph. HKED has 38/42mm, sapphire/acrylic, open/closed/solid case backs with expanded colorways and even a swan neck regulator on some of them. Caseback crystal is probably mineral crystal but not mentioned anywhere. Text on dial is romanized 19 Zuan, Zhongguo(which means Middle Kingdom aka China)and no red stars. Post sales support is generally good/prompt from what I've read.

Link to entire collection is here https://www.hkedwatches.com/collections

HKED ED63 Cream with blue hands -Domed Acrylic,38mm- USD 260 Link to watch https://www.hkedwatches.com/collections ... hronograph

Specs
Case
Diameter- 38mm
Lug To Lug Distance - 47mm
Thickness - 14mm
Lug Width- 18mm

Finishing
Polished bezel and lugs
Polished case sides and caseback

Crystal
Domed acrylic crystal

Caseback
Display caseback

Movement
Hand-winding Sea-Gull ST1901 Chronograph

Dial
Matte finish
Applied indices and logo

Strap
18mm brown leather

other dial color variants with domed acrylic crystals are here - https://www.hkedwatches.com/collections ... hronograph

This would be closest homage to the original D304. Domed acrylic crystal is easy to scratch but easy to polish out and adds colour warmth to the cream dial. The Seagull D304 didn't come with a display caseback, but this one does. Unsure why Seagull didn't decide to show off the beautiful Venus 175 based ST19 movement. HKED does sell closed/solid casebacks separately on the site if so desired. Pictures of the Domed acrylic 38mm front and rear view plus closed/solid caseback below:

Image
Image

Image

Solid caseback for USD 25 available at https://www.hkedwatches.com/collections ... ack-option

Sapphire HKED ED63 Cream Sapphire Crystal,38mm - USD 290 ( USD 30 premium over the domed acrylic crystal) - Link to watch is here https://www.hkedwatches.com/collections ... blue-hands
Specs - exactly same as domed acrylic version and only thing different is the flat sapphire crystal. The dial looks more white/less warm in comparison. Only posting picture of the dial as rest is same.

Image

Depending on how good your screens are calibrated for colour accuracy and how good your eyes are(since you don't have these watches in hand), here's a good video from Long Island Watch company to see the color difference. Skip to 6 mins 40 sec to see the side by side comparison



42mm- cream dial - USD 380 - Link to watch is here https://www.hkedwatches.com/collections ... blue-hands

This watch is not in same colors or size as above. This is sized at 42mm, domed sapphire crystal(vs flat sapphire vs domed acrylic) with inner anti-reflective coating and swan neck regulator. Seems like the next step of what D304 could become if Seagull wanted to improve upon it. Pictures below
Image
Image

other dial color variants with domed acrylic crystals are here -https://www.hkedwatches.com/collections/1963-42mm
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#6

Post by pgcity » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:42 am

3a.Where can I get an authentic enough/homage/decently supported 1963?
Long Island Watch Company
A well known retailer and Youtuber is Marc Frankel of Long Island Watch Company.

As posted here https://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/does- ... 70187.html some of the claims are slightly misleading. Whatever the reasons are, I think it's valid to quote this reply on the thread which states "In one of his videos -- made after he began importing Tianjin Sea-Gull watches -- Marc states flat out that the Seagull 1963s he sells are made by a company called Red Star Watches. " and this reply where "reliability of this seller is more important than discussing if it's a "real" Seagull or not". By that account I gather he has mostly positive feedbacks for his version of 1963. Keep in mind Seagull itself only produces D304(and of course that too contracted out to another company to build for them-bewildering to say the least :D ).

It's been a while since I watched the video and I don't remember exactly but just scroll up and listen/watch the entire 14-15min long comparison clip I posted above. He should mention that he gets his watches from Red Star Watches and NOT Seagull .The impression I got from the clip was that, Red Star Watches builds the 1963 variants based on Marc's requirements and many posts of forums state that Red Star Watches make better quality variant of the 1963. The dial's Pin Yin characters read "Made in the Middle Kingdom" which is the same as "Made in the China" according to Google Translate. This is the same as Thomas' version below. Strangely Long Island's website says the characters read "China Tianjin Watch Factory" which it doesn't. An oversight perhaps on their part which just adds to the confusion to the non Chinese speaking/reading watch buyer.

Please also note that a red star on the dial of a variant you find elsewhere, may not be from the same company Marc gets his from. Caveat emptor.

Now onto the watches themselves:

The entire collection is linked here https://www.longislandwatch.com/Seagull ... s/1903.htm

Summary of Differences between the SKUs
-There's 2 case size/lug width- 42/22mm and 38/18mm. Some of the watches are listed as 19 Jewel count while others are shown as 21. The jewel count of 19 is doubtful it's purely for aesthetics on the dial. Read the post above on 19/21 Jewels to know more. The acrylic crystal is quite possibly domed while the sapphire/hardened mineral crystal variant isn't. You get acrylic, hardened mineral and sapphire options for crystal.The S in the SKU number indicates sapphire. Caseback on some are listed as mineral crystal while not mentioned in others.

Differences in the specs for each SKU is bolded.

SEAGULL 1963 HAND WIND MECHANICAL CHRONOGRAPH WITH GOLDTONE DIAL #6488-2901C - USD 329
link to watch is here https://www.longislandwatch.com/Seagull ... -2901c.htm
Specs:
Movement: 21-Jewel
Case: 42mm x 13mm
Crystal: Hardened Mineral
Band: 22mm lug width

Image
Image
***unsure why there's some dirt on the movement. could be a bad picture. best to verify with Long Island Watch before purchasing***


SEAGULL 1963 HAND WIND MECHANICAL CHRONOGRAPH WITH ACRYLIC CRYSTAL #6345A-2901 - USD 329
link to watch is here https://www.longislandwatch.com/Seagull ... a-2901.htm
Specs
Movement: 19-Jewel
Case: 38mm diameter x 15mm thick
Crystal: Acrylic
Band: 18mm lug width

Image
Image
***on this one, the caseback movement is clean compared to one above. Verify with Long Island Watch on this discrepancy before purchasing***


I am only posting pictures of the first 2 SKUs as that is representative of the rest.The differences are not visible from static pictures on the website. Size differences aside, the dial on the acrylic is the warmest tone followed by hardened mineral and finally the sapphire which is the coldest/least warm tone..Watch the video posted above for better visuals including whether the hardened mineral crystal is domed or not(I can't remember). The acrylic should be while the sapphire is definitely flat.

SEAGULL 1963 HAND WIND MECHANICAL CHRONOGRAPH WITH SAPPHIRE CRYSTAL #6345G-2901 - USD 379
link to watch is here https://www.longislandwatch.com/Seagull ... g-2901.htm
Specs
Movement: 21-Jewel
Case: 38mm diameter x 13mm thick
Crystal: Scratch resistant sapphire
Band: lug width not mentioned but assume it is 18mm


SEAGULL 1963 HAND WIND MECHANICAL CHRONOGRAPH WITH SAPPHIRE CRYSTAL #6488-2901C-S - USD 379
link to watch is here https://www.longislandwatch.com/Seagull ... 901c-s.htm
Specs
Movement: 21-Jewel
Case: 42mm x 13mm thick
Crystal: Scratch Resistant Sapphire
Band: 22mm lug width


Other 2 dial variants are white and black and can be found on the links below
White linked here https://www.longislandwatch.com/Seagull ... -2901w.htm
Black linked here https://www.longislandwatch.com/Seagull ... 8-2901.htm

Comparison to HKED's version
-HKED only has 38mm for the cream dial. No 42mm, hardened mineral crystal nor sapphire crystal
-HKED's version states 19 Zuan on the bottom half of the dial(instead of the top of dial below the red star) without any Pin Yin lettering unlike this one. The letters read China - Tianjin Watch Factory- once again for aesthetics and not indicative of Seagull Watch factory as place of manufacture.
- The hands used for the sub dials on the left and right are also not the same vs HKED's
- HKED uses square indices for 1,5,7 and 11 instead of triangle
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#7

Post by pgcity » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:36 am

3b. Where can I get an authentic enough/homage/decently supported 1963?
Thomas' 1963

The earliest postings that can be found when you search "Thomas Seagull" on Google will be the thread from 2010-2013 from the F72 WUS forum. This thread is linked here https://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/seagu ... 20653.html

The thread was then updated to a 2nd thread starting from 2013 onwards till end of 2018. The updated thread is linked here https://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/1963- ... 21627.html . In short about 9-10 years worth of information to sift through for comparisons etc including Thomas' version.

"Leung Hon Chung, Thomas" used to work with Tsinlien's watch division. It is called Tsinlien Sea Gull Co Ltd. His old business card from 2010 is below
Name card.jpg
Name card.jpg (38.38 KiB) Viewed 2823 times
:

Slight digression:
=================
=================
Don't confuse Tsinlien Seagull with Tianjin-Seagull China. Tsinlien is a trading company dealing in many things including watches from Seagull.

Tsinlien also seems to have their own watch factory in Guandong manufacturing for - Titus/Movado/Maurice Blum as listed here https://www.tradeeasy.com/supplier/3105 ... -gull.html. Maurice Blum is a Seagull brand from what i've found so Tsinlien is possibly an OEM manufacturer for Seagull as well.

On the tradeeasy site you'll see a link to https://www.sea-gullmall.com/ where Tsinlien sell lots of Sea Gull watches. Website is slow and it's in Pin Yin so run through Google Translate for an idea of what they sell there. I've not gone through the site to see if they have a 1963 or D304 there,

According to HKED, Thomas' factory is in Shenzen and they source ST19 movement directly from Seagull. Thomas also makes watches for HKED. HKED goes on further to state that Thomas is the first person who first designed the 42mm version regardless what Seagull or anyone else claims. Read on this link https://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/buyin ... 521-3.html. I think it's believable when you read what happened to Aevig and Seagull here https://forums.watchuseek.com/f71/wtf-s ... 96561.html

HKED mentions on the same thread that Thomas' watch has no Seagull logo/markings. That seems to be the case based on the pictures sent to me by Thomas. This may/may not have have changed now but you can verify with Thomas if this is true or otherwise.
=================
=================

From the 2nd thread posted above, it's clear that Tsinlien and Thomas still have some sort of relationship but I'm not delving into it. His current contact details as of Jan 2019 are same as given on the business card above from 2010. :

lhczthomas@gmail.com
Hong Kong mobile number: +852 6097 2214
China phone number: +86 159 207 64624

English is not his first language so be aware of abrupt/terse/short replies over email. It helps to keep your questions concise and to the point.

Now onto the watches themselves:

Summary of Differences between the SKUs

When I last got in touch with him in Jan 2019, he had 3 variants of the cream dial.No closed caseback option.I am guessing the caseback is mineral crystal but this was not asked/mentioned in my conversation with him.The 3 variants are:
1. 38mm on domed acrylic(unsure if double domed but assuming so)- USD 230 + shipping
2. 38mm on flat sapphire crystal - USD 260 + shipping.
3. 42mm on mineral crystal - USD 230 + shipping - no sapphire crystal variant.

He also has the black and white dial variants but I didn't ask about them.

The watches come with 2 year warranty. Payment via Paypal to his email address as stated above. He didn't have a 42mm sapphire crystal version as of Jan 2019 but you can check with him for latest info and prices.

As I was emailed a bunch of pictures with no clear separation of 38/42mm, I've attached them here as I received them. The only noticeable difference in the pictures is the dial with 19/21 Zuan written on them. My guess is the 38mm will show the 19 Zuan on dial while the 42mm will show the 21 Zuan on dial but I'm not sure. The dial's Pin Yin characters read "Made in China" according to Google Translate. This is same as Long Island Watch Company. No mention of Tianjin Watch Factory
th1.jpg
th2.jpg
th3.jpg
th3.jpg (135 KiB) Viewed 2823 times
th4.jpg
42-2.jpg
42-2.jpg (113.68 KiB) Viewed 2823 times
42-3.jpg

Comparison to HKED's version
-Refer to comparison between HKED and the Long Island Watch Company's 1963 posted above.

Comparison to Long Island Watch Company's 1963
-Pricing wise is about USD 100-110 cheaper
-Thomas' 1963 looks very similar to Long Island Watch Company's 1963. The only exception seems to be the signed crown- Brushed and polished star logo on the crown vs Long Island Watch 'sversion which have either a polished star logo or Seagull logo.Once again please refer to the Long Island Watch video posted above around 5min 30secs and and compare with pictures posted here. It could be just camera angles but you can check with Thomas/Long Island Watch Company for details if it matters.
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#8

Post by pgcity » Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:38 am

3c. Where can I get an authentic enough/homage/decently supported 1963?
Watchunique's 1963

They ship internationally and have been in business since 2008 based in Netherlands. The also seem to carry a small collection of chinese watches from Ocean Star, Dong Fend and Seagull. Prices are listed as Non-EU/EU in € currency. This could be a cheaper option for those within EU considering VAT charges. It also seems to be closer in price to Thomas's version for those outside EU.

As of this post - 1st Sep 2019, prices range from €189-249 (USD 208-274) + shipping within the EU.Non EU pricing is between €156.20-205.79 (USD 172-226) + shipping outside the EU

Contact info is listed on the link here: https://www.watchunique.com/customer-service/

Now onto the watches themselves:

The entire collection is listed here: https://www.watchunique.com/seagull-1963-original.html

All the watches share similar specs:
Crystal: Original curved acrylic crystal
Case size: 37.5mm / 1.5" (without crown), 40mm / 1.57" (with crown)
Movement :Sea Gull caliber ST1901 (21 jewels, hand winding chronograph)
Lug size: 18mm / 0.7"

No 42mm or sapphire crystal option. All dials are imprinted with 21 Zuan at the top of the dial and 2 lines of Pin Yin characters at the bottom compared to the Long Island Watch or Thomas's versions which only come in a single line. According to Google Translate the first line reads as "Made in the Middle Kingdom" aka "Made in China" while the second line reads "Tianjin Watch Factory"

Summary of Differences between the SKUs
There are 5 variants. Leather strap option available on 2 of them and a unique black PVD case on one that I've not seen anywhere else. Some have crystal casebacks and others with solid/closed. The crystal caseback is also available for purchase separately.

I will only post pictures of some of the variants that are different as most look similar.

Seagull 1963 - solid caseback - Non-EU: €156.20 / EU: €189.00
Link to watch is here https://www.watchunique.com/seagull-196 ... solid.html
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Seagull 1963-display caseback - no mention of type but assuming it's mineral - Non-EU: €180.99 / EU: €219.00
Link to watch is here https://www.watchunique.com/seagull-196 ... splay.html
Image
Image

Seagull 1963 - display caseback - leather strap - Non-EU: €205.79 / EU: €249.00
Strap type : Morellato leather strap with stainless steel buckle
Strap length: 20cm / 8.0"
Link to watch is here https://www.watchunique.com/seagull-196 ... ather.html
Image

Seagull 1963 - solid caseback - leather strap - Non-EU: €180.99 / EU: €219.00
Link to watch is here https://www.watchunique.com/seagull-1963-original/se agull-1963-solid-leather.html

Seagull 1963 Black Edition - Non-EU: €180.99 / EU: €219.00
This is probably the most unique variant with black PVD coating on stainless steel
Link to watch is here https://www.watchunique.com/seagull-196 ... 1963b.html
Image
Image
Image
Image

Crystal caseback(probably mineral crystal) is available for purchase separately - Non-EU: €24.79 / EU: €30.00.
Link to caseback here https://www.watchunique.com/seagull-196 ... -1963.html
Image

Comparison to HKED's version
-Refer to comparison between HKED and the Long Island Watch Company's 1963 posted above.

Comparison to Long Island Watch Company's 1963
-Pricing wise is over USD 120-150 cheaper compared to Long Island Watch Company and is closer to Thomas's versions. The leather and PVD case options are unique as well.
-The crystal caseback is imprinted with text unlike Long Island Watch Company's/Thomas' 1963 version.
-The crown seems to have a star logo but unsure if it's similar with Long Island Watch Company's/Thomas' 1963 version
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#9

Post by pgcity » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:08 am

3d. Where can I get an authentic enough/homage/decently supported 1963?
Poljot24's 1963

Company run by Julian Kampmann and has been around for a long time(1992?) specializing in Russian watches. Many of the watches use the ST19 movements. This could be a cheaper option for those within EU considering VAT charges. It is possibly cheaper as well for those outside the EU but you will need to deduct 19% from the prices shown below.

As of this post - 1st Sep 2019, prices range from €259-334 (USD 285-368) + shipping within the EU. Non EU pricing is between €209-271 (USD 230-298) + shipping outside the EU.


Contact Details are as follows:
Julian Kampmann
Linprunstr. 47
80335 München
Tel. +49.89.330 797 61
Fax +49.89.330 797 59
kampmann@poljot24.de

Rest of details can be found here https://www.poljot24.de/

There are far too many variants to list and a little overwhelming with the text and pictures but here's the link to the entire collection https://www.poljot24.de/en/marken/seagu ... U&limit=36

As you can see from the collection, there are blue, green and many more dial variants but I am going to limit to cream dial ones below.

I suggest getting in touch with the owner to be absolutely certain on which SKU to select when buying a watch. The descriptions are incomplete on some of them as well.

Now onto the watches:

Summary of Differences between the SKUs
Watches are available in 38mm(acrylic/sapphire crystal) or 42mm(hardened mineral/sapphire crystal)imprinted with either 19(38mm acrylic)/21 Zuan(38 and 42mm sapphire crystal variants) and Pin Yin characters which reads "Made in Middle Kingdom" aka "Made in China" according to Google Translate. The Pin Yin text is similar to Thomas/Long Island Watch Company versions but not HKED or Watchunique. The 38/42mm sapphire crystal version also come with has a swan neck regulator added which is not available on the 38mm acrylic and 42mm hardened mineral crystal variants. The swan neck regulator is unique among the vendors listed so far. HKED also uses them but not on his D304 variants. Watches come on Nato, regular/RIOS1931 leather, milanese or a combination of these.

Case size: 38mm(without crown), 40mm(with crown)
Movement: Seagull ST19 21 Jewels
Lug size: 18mm
Height: 14mm
Caseback: Crystal- assuming it's mineral as its not clearly mentioned. Text surrounding the caseback also looks different compared to Long Island Watch,Thomas and Watchunique.

Delivery is inclusive wooden watch case, green NATO textile strap and an additional high-quality RIOS1931 leather strap.

I am only posting pictures where the differences are visible.

Seagull 1963 38mm Acrylic crystal, Nato strap. No leather option - €259.00 (Incl. 19% VAT, Excl. shipping)
Link to watch is here https://www.poljot24.de/en/marken/seagu ... l?___SID=U
Image

Seagull 1963 38mm Sapphire crystal, swan neck regulator Nato strap. No leather option - €279.00 Incl. 19% VAT, Excl. shipping
Link to watch https://www.poljot24.de/en/marken/seagu ... l?___SID=U
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Seagull 1963 38mm Acrylic crystal, Nato + RIOS 1931 leather strap. Price varies depending on strap chosen between €275-294.00 (Incl. 19% VAT, Excl. shipping)
Link to watch is here https://www.poljot24.de/en/marken/seagu ... l?___SID=U
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Seagull 1963 38mm Sapphire glass,swan neck regulator, Nato + RIOS 1931 leather strap. Price varies depending on strap chosen between €295-314 (Incl. 19% VAT, Excl. shipping)
Link to watch is here https://www.poljot24.de/en/marken/seagu ... l?___SID=U

Seagull 1963 38mm Sapphire glass,swan neck regulator, Nato + milanese strap(description says 3 straps but I count 2) - €299.00 Incl. (19% VAT, Excl. shipping)
Link to watch is here https://www.poljot24.de/en/marken/seagu ... l?___SID=U
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Seagull 1963 Hardened Mineral crystal 42mm, Nato strap. No leather option - €269 (Incl. 19% VAT, Excl. shipping)
Link to watch is here https://www.poljot24.de/en/marken/seagu ... l?___SID=U

Seagull 1963 Hardened Mineral crystal 42mm, Nato + regular leather strap trap - €285 (Incl. 19% VAT, Excl. shipping)
Link to watch is here https://www.poljot24.de/en/marken/seagu ... l?___SID=U

Seagull 1963 Hardened Mineral crystal 42mm, Nato(not mentioned but assume is included) + Milanese strap - €291.00 (Incl. 19% VAT, Excl. shipping)
Link to watch is here
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Seagull 1963 Sapphire 42mm, swan neck regulator, Nato + RIOS 1931 leather straps. Price varies depending on strap chosen between €315-334 (Incl. 19% VAT, Excl. shipping)
Link to watch is here https://www.poljot24.de/en/marken/seagu ... l?___SID=U

Difference hardened mineral and sapphire crystal variants - Left is mineral(warmer tone) and right is sapphire(colder tone)
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HKED's black and white/cream variants(not acknowledged on page) are also available but link below is only for the D304 black and white cream variant again.
Seagull 38 mm cream dial Acrylic crystal on regular(No Nato/RIOS?) leather strap - €275.00 (Incl. 19% VAT, Excl. shipping)
Link to watch is here https://www.poljot24.de/en/marken/seagu ... l?___SID=U
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There's an all black version as well here https://www.poljot24.de/en/marken/seagull/7002.html

Comparison to HKED's version
-Refer to comparison between HKED and the Long Island Watch Company's 1963 posted above. 2 variants from HKED is also sold here though it is not acknowledged as HKED's version.

Comparison to Long Island Watch Company,Thomas,Watchunique's 1963
-Pricing depends on the strap choice and varies a fair bit.
-The crystal caseback is similar to Long Island Watch Company's/Thomas' 1963 version.
-The crown seems to have a star logo that looks similar similar with Long Island Watch Company's/Thomas' 1963 version
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#10

Post by pgcity » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:41 am

*phew*

That covers pretty much what I know to be reliable 1963 retailers. Are there better retailers? maybe, i don't know .Please feel free to add your own if there's more.

Are there finer differences than what i posted? Yes, think i missed on watch cases, text on the case etc. I'll add as I go along.

Is there still more cleanup to do on the posting above? yes, here and there.Everyone welcome to point out errors/mistakes if any and I shall put that into the correct post.

Are the watches listed above all made by authentic Tianjin Seagull as some of them state on the dial? No but that's not the point with the 1963. They're using same ST19 movement as the D304 but you would want to get a reliable variant and support when/if it fails and generally retailers listed above have decent reviews which you can Google yourself.

So are there really fakes/replicas? - not a simple YES/NO as they are all homages of the D304 and the issue is the movement and its reliability plus support you can get from seller. I'm sure you can probably find cheaper elsewhere but this movement is known to have high failure rates and it's better to err on side of caution and get a watch that will be decently supported from the retailer

What's the big takeaway for the 1963(and the D304 later) here(your probably guessed it)? ---> Buy the seller not the watch!

P/S: I can already imagine a blockbuster book/movie/series if someone compiled the data for the last 10 years and prequels if you go further to the D304 in the 1960s. There's a lot of information/misinformation by everyone in the saga(retailers,buyers/reviewers,manufacturer etc) and quite a fair bit of the unknown/mystery behind all of it.

P P/S:the D304 will be posted later when I get the time.

PP P/S: Fun fact - watch dial itself is "inspired" from the Angelus cal 215 reportedly used by the Hungarian Air Force in WW2 as seen below
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#11

Post by TheJohnP » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:45 am

Thank you for extensive deep dive into the variants and differences between these @pgcity. I never realized how many versions there are of this particular watch.
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#12

Post by pgcity » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:39 am

The official Seagull store(100% positive feedback) on Aliexpress has the 2018 re-edition(from the 5500 units made and numbered solid caseback based on pictures) of the 1963 in stock(60 pieces available listed at the point I'm writing this) for USD 336.30 with Free shipping for the 11.11 sale. Retail listed at USD 399 currently from the previous USD 570.

Official Seagull Store home page is here https://www.aliexpress.com/store/5117082

Retailmenot has 9% cashback capped at USD 50 which should bring down the price to USD 306.03. Retailmenot requires a US phone number for redemption but that's not hard to acquire if you Google it. New Aliexpress signups get another USD 3 off.

Click on Retailmenot Aliexpress link here https://www.retailmenot.com/cashback/2/ ... T5MELHV6WQ
before proceeding to the watch linked here https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000252 ... 5uG2F&mp=1

This is significantly cheaper compared to sellers like EOL Outlet listing it at over USD 500. Plenty of other versions sold by many other sellers on Aliexpress(including one posted by JOMW - https://www.aliexpress.com/store/2304001 ) at almost half the price of this one but i think best get the original from the Seagull's official store if interested.
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#13

Post by deckeda » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:52 pm

I appreciate all the research! My take on the 1963/304 is this:

1) I'll take Thomas Leung's word that he created the first reissues. There's an audio interview on this page, https://www.amchpr.com/cwcf2019_redstar.html

2) Anything available today is a reissue of a whatever government contractor built the ones back in '63 or whenever. The notion of recent provenance existing as a "thing" is odd in light of modern Chinese manufacturing and with the sharing of intellectual content anyway.

The watch being generally (or often) characterized as a "Sea-Gull" is done mainly out of convenience related to who designed the movement, not who cased it or made anything else such as the dial or the case. Yes, Sea-Gull does have their own version of the watch and it came after Red Star's.

3) Things like case finishing can differ. That's why some are closer to $150 and some more like $300+. And don't forget that the ST19 was updated with the swan neck regulator some 8+ years ago, but that's not a guarantee all watches available from all sellers have it.
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Re: Seagull 1963 / D304

#14

Post by deckeda » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:58 pm

4) With as many variations of the '63 as there are from HKED and the others, it's a short stretch to then consider the "non 1963" watches using this movement such as any modern Strela with 2 sub dials, https://strela-watch.de/collection/ or the WatchGecko Geckota W-02, https://www.watchgecko.com/geckota-w-02 ... ress-watch
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