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Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by Robotaz »

I don’t believe “him”.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by mplsabdullah »

%99 of people do not notice or care whats on your wrist. All that matters is that YOU like what you see.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by The Sultan of SoWhat »

----

Came up this:

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The page you requested does not exist. Click here to continue shopping.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by Deepdweller »

Hello guys.

I've updated my write-up with further information regarding human beings being sold and "syndicates". There's more about this in the write-up.

Image

It can be found here: https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposing-g ... as-caddell



TheJohnP wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:59 am Quick question for @Deepdweller

Have you reported your findings to the authorities?
I know you're doing your best to keep the blog posts up wherever you can, but seems that is information that needs to be reported.
Various authorities have been contacted, Swiss and American. And also lawyers Rolex retains. I've commented about the lawyers on reddit but I guess it got buried.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by MAAHHH THE FRENCH! »

Well now, this is an interesting little drama. I haven't had time to read the full report, so I can't comment in depth. What I do feel fairly confident in saying is:

-If someone uses fraudulent methods (such as false names for registration), nothing else from them should be considered honest either. Given the deception exposed, I most certainly do doubt that Ginault makes a quality product, or at the very least expect they can't be trusted to offer quality customer service.
-There's very good reason for researchers such as Deepdweller to remain anonymous--whistleblowers are largely revered only in theory, much less so in practice.
-Yes, these type of activists are prone to error. They're not paid professionals, mistakes happen. If you want to be certain of facts, do the footwork yourself to verify.

Caveat emptor, baby.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by yinzburgher »

Deepdweller wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:57 pm Various authorities have been contacted, Swiss and American. And also lawyers Rolex retains. I've commented about the lawyers on reddit but I guess it got buried.
Thanks for the update. Have any authorities, Swiss, American, or otherwise asked to speak to you for any further information regarding Tsung Chi?
Also, any word on whether or not this purported sale of individuals would have taken place in the United States? I wonder if such a thing happening wouldn't be more likely to make him a witness in an entirely different investigation rather than have anything to do with the crimes he may have actually committed based on your research. Serious and worth looking into?...certainly. But I think mentioning that you are peripherally aware of a possible serious crime is significantly different than actually committing one. As far as TC using the term syndicate. It can often have a negative connotation but it is a very non-specific word that, to me, does not necessarily imply anything nefarious. Tough to wring much meaning or intent out of that word, even with the provided context. I definitely appreciate the update and hope that you continue to do so. Particularly with anything you hear regarding any investigations or charges.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by Deepdweller »

MAAHHH THE FRENCH! wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:39 am Well now, this is an interesting little drama. I haven't had time to read the full report, so I can't comment in depth. What I do feel fairly confident in saying is:

-If someone uses fraudulent methods (such as false names for registration), nothing else from them should be considered honest either. Given the deception exposed, I most certainly do doubt that Ginault makes a quality product, or at the very least expect they can't be trusted to offer quality customer service.
-There's very good reason for researchers such as Deepdweller to remain anonymous--whistleblowers are largely revered only in theory, much less so in practice.
-Yes, these type of activists are prone to error. They're not paid professionals, mistakes happen. If you want to be certain of facts, do the footwork yourself to verify.

Caveat emptor, baby.
Thanks for the comments!

yinzburgher wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:39 am Thanks for the update. Have any authorities, Swiss, American, or otherwise asked to speak to you for any further information regarding Tsung Chi?
Also, any word on whether or not this purported sale of individuals would have taken place in the United States? I wonder if such a thing happening wouldn't be more likely to make him a witness in an entirely different investigation rather than have anything to do with the crimes he may have actually committed based on your research. Serious and worth looking into?...certainly. But I think mentioning that you are peripherally aware of a possible serious crime is significantly different than actually committing one. As far as TC using the term syndicate. It can often have a negative connotation but it is a very non-specific word that, to me, does not necessarily imply anything nefarious. Tough to wring much meaning or intent out of that word, even with the provided context. I definitely appreciate the update and hope that you continue to do so. Particularly with anything you hear regarding any investigations or charges.
I appreciate your questions. The supplier Tsung was talking about is from China not the US, and it appears that it happened in China. And regarding the use of the word "syndicate", the counterfeiting industry in China is huge, and bribery is rampant. So no, I don't believe he used the word syndicate innocently. Either way, a "syndicate" that owns a factory producing counterfeits is not innocent.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by yinzburgher »

I stopped following the Ginault discussion over on WUS a while back. It all became a bit too aggressive for me. But for the folks following along at home that like a good trainwreck, the Ginault tumult has moved to new thread so that the Ocean Rover people could have their thread back in a calmer state again.

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f71/ginau ... 89751.html
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by CitizenV »

yinzburgher wrote:I stopped following the Ginault discussion over on WUS a while back. It all became a bit too aggressive for me. But for the folks following along at home that like a good trainwreck, the Ginault tumult has moved to new thread so that the Ocean Rover people could have their thread back in a calmer state again.

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f71/ginau ... 89751.html
That new thread was quickly derailed into attacks on the OP, justified or not. What a mess.

The other posts weren't much better. I got into an argument with what must be Ginault fan who is wilfully ignorant.

I like many aspects of WUS but it may be time to quit and move on.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by yinzburgher »

CitizenV wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:44 am
yinzburgher wrote:I stopped following the Ginault discussion over on WUS a while back. It all became a bit too aggressive for me. But for the folks following along at home that like a good trainwreck, the Ginault tumult has moved to new thread so that the Ocean Rover people could have their thread back in a calmer state again.

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f71/ginau ... 89751.html
That new thread was quickly derailed into attacks on the OP, justified or not. What a mess.

The other posts weren't much better. I got into an argument with what must be Ginault fan who is wilfully ignorant.

I like many aspects of WUS but it may be time to quit and move on.
Yea, I agree it was a total mess. I mentioned that it was too aggressive for me but also failed to mention I actually couldn't keep up any more. 800 posts in a day and a half. I like to make a solid point as much as the next guy but arguing over a watch or a brand that is really of no consequence for me just isn't worth it. If I got upset about Ginault I would probably in turn get even more upset with myself for caring quite so much about something so stupid. lol The whole story was very interesting to me as info came out and I like thinking and discussion the ethics of the situation but then it just devolves so quickly. Anyway, I just checked the thread and CMSgt Bo shut it down 2 hours ago. I'm surprised he let it go on so long to be honest. I just hope the same people don't move right back to the Ocean Rover thread. It will meet the same fate. As far as tossing aside WUS goes, I was extremely disillusioned with them about 6-7 months ago but at this point I'm actually happy I didn't get booted and that I kept a foot in the door. This forum here is home for me but there really is no greater resource for watch info than WUS and I still like to post there occasionally. For a number of years before I was ever a member I would read through threads particularly about Seiko and Hamilton that were years old. Anyway, you're welcome to hang out and participate here. Maybe find a good deal or 2 or 3.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by househalfman »

For once I wanted Bo to save me from that thread...then it got interesting with the OP being "outed"...then came Bo [emoji2363]
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by Deepdweller »

yinzburgher wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:50 pm I stopped following the Ginault discussion over on WUS a while back. It all became a bit too aggressive for me. But for the folks following along at home that like a good trainwreck, the Ginault tumult has moved to new thread so that the Ocean Rover people could have their thread back in a calmer state again.

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f71/ginau ... 89751.html
Just finished reading all of it. What a mess, it's all so embarrassing.

My thoughts:

The other guys defending Ginault were quite persistent in trying to downplay everything Tsung Chi has done, they really like whataboutism.

Tsung wouldn't have sold counterfeits for six continuous years if he wasn't making any profits, and now he's selling the same watch but with a different name on the dial for double. Which also explains why he can give out 40-50% discounts so easily.

Image

"It's an homage, bro!"



Another guy was adamant in claiming there's no proof Tsung sold counterfeits past 2016. When there's this:
Image


Which has been in the write-up from the very start.

I've also recently updated it to include this too:

Image

You can see those counterfeits were sold in 2017, months after "Ginault" started selling watches - December 2016.


A different guy weirdly kept calling TC's counterfeits "costume jewellery" in what seems to be an attempt to downplay the counterfeiting, and he also said "It maybe looks pretty on the outside, but internally it is evident it isn't the real thing." which describes all the illegal counterfeits coming out of China...

And he also said:

"T/C made "costume jewellery" and sold it as "costume jewellery" to people willing to buy "costume jewellery"."

It really seems to me that he's trying to downplay the situation. Let's switch the counterfeit watch for counterfeit money that's also extremely close to the real thing.

A person made "play money" and sold it as "play money" to people willing to buy "play money".

Doesn't sound good does it?


The OP, I don't know how to describe him. It was truly a trainwreck, especially after the information came out that he had counterfeit watches and was interested in buying another as seen in the screengrab of his post in a replica watch forum.

And finally, Ginault is back under the protection of Rule 9 - "No discussions or pictures of replica watches...".



Side note, I've also updated the write-up yesterday to include more information about the origin of the movement, and other things.
https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposing-g ... as-caddell
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by cairoanan »

Deepdweller wrote:
yinzburgher wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:50 pm I stopped following the Ginault discussion over on WUS a while back. It all became a bit too aggressive for me. But for the folks following along at home that like a good trainwreck, the Ginault tumult has moved to new thread so that the Ocean Rover people could have their thread back in a calmer state again.

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f71/ginau ... 89751.html
Just finished reading all of it. What a mess, it's all so embarrassing.

My thoughts:

The other guys defending Ginault were quite persistent in trying to downplay everything Tsung Chi has done, they really like whataboutism.

Tsung wouldn't have sold counterfeits for six continuous years if he wasn't making any profits, and now he's selling the same watch but with a different name on the dial for double. Which also explains why he can give out 40-50% discounts so easily.

Image

"It's an homage, bro!"



Another guy was adamant in claiming there's no proof Tsung sold counterfeits past 2016. When there's this:
Image


Which has been in the write-up from the very start.

I've also recently updated it to include this too:

Image

You can see those counterfeits were sold in 2017, months after "Ginault" started selling watches - December 2016.


A different guy weirdly kept calling TC's counterfeits "costume jewellery" in what seems to be an attempt to downplay the counterfeiting, and he also said "It maybe looks pretty on the outside, but internally it is evident it isn't the real thing." which describes all the illegal counterfeits coming out of China...

And he also said:

"T/C made "costume jewellery" and sold it as "costume jewellery" to people willing to buy "costume jewellery"."

It really seems to me that he's trying to downplay the situation. Let's switch the counterfeit watch for counterfeit money that's also extremely close to the real thing.

A person made "play money" and sold it as "play money" to people willing to buy "play money".

Doesn't sound good does it?


The OP, I don't know how to describe him. It was truly a trainwreck, especially after the information came out that he had counterfeit watches and was interested in buying another as seen in the screengrab of his post in a replica watch forum.

And finally, Ginault is back under the protection of Rule 9 - "No discussions or pictures of replica watches...".



Side note, I've also updated the write-up yesterday to include more information about the origin of the movement, and other things.
https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposing-g ... as-caddell
Kudos for all the sleuthing on this. I stumbled across your original posts while going down a google hole. Oh my gosh - unbelievable stuff.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by Dec1967 »

I'm the OP of the thread that got shut down - Dec1968 (I typoed making my login here on my iPhone - lol)

The Ginault thread was and always has been thugs defending their brand.

I want to clarify what I wasn't allowed to say on WUS. If that's not permitted, mods please delete.

I have always loved the Rolex 5517. I started with a Steinhart OVM to gain a 'close to original' look and feel. Back in 2014 or so. I had also stumbled across the TC threads and was amazed at how close these guys got. I did exchange a few messages with him. Was cool, but I wasn't comfortable buying a fake watch. Plus who knows if I would get ripped off. Just felt too shady. Hard pass.

Fast forward a few years and a few other watches (Armida, Helson, modded Invicta, a few more Steinharts, Seiko's, etc, all legit) and then eventually I did purchase two fake dials (I think $20-$30 each) and one cheap folded clasp and put those onto an Invicta 8926 to just see what it looked like. Period. Full stop. Didn't like the way it made me feel - I knew I had a fake (which I did, obviously). Didn't feel comfortable with them. Two Invicta watches, that's it.

Still modded a few Seiko's and bought and sold some watches.

Found Ginault in late 2017/early 2018. Wow what a nice watch, so perfect in execution. Thought to myself 'This might be a good watch to get, it looks well made, very well priced, and the reviews seem good'.

Bought a used one. Had a movement issue. Spoke to 'John' (which we now know is TC) and he agreed to repair it. Felt good. Bought a new one. Had two Ginault's.

When I wore them out, I had more than a few people notice them and say 'Nice Rolex'.

Ugh. It made my stomach turn.

I felt like it was the fake dialed Invicta experience, but on a larger scale. I decided then that the mod or replica type watches were not for me. Ever. I made a major decision.

* Get rid of whatever wasn't genuine.

Bought an Omega 2254 and sold both Ginault watches. I had traded one Invicta off with the express agreement that the dial be removed and the buyer agreed. * The other sits in my underwear drawer. It's really a reminder to me of how far I'd fallen. I will never wear it. I do keep it as that sole reminder. I fear that someone else may try to pass it off as genuine.

2018/early 2019. Was working for a guy with a gen Submariner who knew I was a watch guy. Expressed an interest in buying a fake one for when he went fishing or working around his house. Not my bag, but he is a guy I've known over 20 years and this was for him to not wear out in public, just for him to wear while banging around his house - so I got on the forums and asked questions.

That's it.

It angers me I didn't, but I should have said ALL of that up front. I never deleted pics or hid anything, just didn't realize that the zealots would attack me. But as everyone can plainly see, if my intent was to lie, I would not have left any evidence to 'out me'. Maybe that makes me naive. I honestly don't care what a faceless internet stranger thinks of me, but it did sting. I had built up a decent reputation on WUS and I was stupid by not saying what I should have said up front. That's my mistake and I own it 100%. I learned a valuable and powerful lesson.

People on the internet are dang ruthless.

I messaged many people on WUS and expressed my apologies and told them the same thing I'm saying here. Even told DeepDweller (got no response).

So there you go. Didn't get to share that anywhere else but I felt it appropriate to share here.
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