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Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by yinzburgher »

I am far from a SEO expert, but one thing that could only help your cause when it comes to the altering of search engine results is to continue to mention the key words and terms on this forum and the Reddit forum. Words like Tsung Chun Chi, Deepdweller, Lexic, Thomas Caddell, Charles Ginault, TC, Digital Forensics, fraud, Allan Kuefer, Taiwan, Ocean Rover, homage, exposé, blog, replica, John McMurty, International Precision Inc., patent, Lonestar Capital Management, camera lens, Fremont, Wyoming, fake, counterfeit, Kensington High, tc-watch-parts.com, Charles Chi, Rolex Submariner.

https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposing-g ... as-caddell
https://lexic.co/deepdweller

And lastly, let's keep the forum fun and enjoyable.

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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by Avo »

Deepdweller wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:47 pm Here's another thing that's fishy. Ginault's thread on WUS.

At times the thread would lock up. The last post on the thread's timestamp would show a certain timestamp inside the thread, but when you view the thread on the sub-forum where it's listed, you'll see the actual timestamp of the last post.

It's possible that the replies are being filtered and manually approved.

Here's a sample from yesterday:
Image

Those screengrabs were taken seconds apart and immediately after refreshing the pages.
As you can see, inside the thread it says "3 hours ago", but in the sub-forum where it's listed, it shows "5 hours ago".
I am Avo, I made that post on WUS. It appeared immediately after I posted it. There was no delay at all.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by Deepdweller »

yinzburgher wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:46 pm I am far from a SEO expert, but one thing that could only help your cause when it comes to the altering of search engine results is to continue to mention the key words and terms on this forum and the Reddit forum. Words like Tsung Chun Chi, Deepdweller, Lexic, Thomas Caddell, Charles Ginault, TC, Digital Forensics, fraud, Allan Kuefer, Taiwan, Ocean Rover, homage, exposé, blog, replica, John McMurty, International Precision Inc., patent, Lonestar Capital Management, camera lens, Fremont, Wyoming, fake, counterfeit, Kensington High, tc-watch-parts.com, Charles Chi, Rolex Submariner.

https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposing-g ... as-caddell
https://lexic.co/deepdweller

And lastly, let's keep the forum fun and enjoyable.
Yeah, only threads referencing it show up on Google.
It's real telling. Why would someone who is completely innocent do this?

Avo wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:19 am I am Avo, I made that post on WUS. It appeared immediately after I posted it. There was no delay at all.
Okay, that's good to hear. I have been informed on another forum that it is a common WUS problem for users who are not signed in, which I am. Because I'm banned, lol.


--


Also, is anyone here a member of the Horology Talk group on Facebook? I'm trying to get inside but I've been rejected, I think they think my account is a spam account. I've added my Facebook link in my bio on https://lexic.co/deepdweller/ as proof that I'm in control of it. I couldn't get in touch with any of the admins or moderators, can anyone help me get inside?
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by yinzburgher »

Deepdweller wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:27 am
yinzburgher wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:46 pm I am far from a SEO expert, but one thing that could only help your cause when it comes to the altering of search engine results is to continue to mention the key words and terms on this forum and the Reddit forum. Words like Tsung Chun Chi, Deepdweller, Lexic, Thomas Caddell, Charles Ginault, TC, Digital Forensics, fraud, Allan Kuefer, Taiwan, Ocean Rover, homage, exposé, blog, replica, John McMurty, International Precision Inc., patent, Lonestar Capital Management, camera lens, Fremont, Wyoming, fake, counterfeit, Kensington High, tc-watch-parts.com, Charles Chi, Rolex Submariner.

https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposing-g ... as-caddell
https://lexic.co/deepdweller

And lastly, let's keep the forum fun and enjoyable.
Yeah, only threads referencing it show up on Google.
It's real telling. Why would someone who is completely innocent do this?
I agree that it does seem telling. And so far the only real semi-public response from Ginault has been to issue a denial (though not a 100% absolute one, surprisingly). But if the man has any sense, he probably sought legal counsel ASAP. In conjunction with a denial, there are other strategies most lawyers would typically employ simultaneously while they work on their case to dispute the story/evidence. Taking some proactive public relations measures (I haven't seen any) and suppressing/changing the visibility or availability of the case against them are some of the things an attorney would likely do to shape the counter-narrative whether the client is 110% guilty or completely innocent. I view this as a fairly normal action, especially now in an age when SEO suppression is big business.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by watchpalooza »

Not seeing the issue with SEO, but I do see a few “controversy” articles and this forum come up on the first page. Here is a response video released today from Guy (JustBlueFish) that came up...is also interesting. Main points he makes:
  1. He claims no knowledge of counterfeiting activities, but downplays them by saying if they did happen he considers moving into a “legitimate” business as a positive change
  2. Says he is not a brand schill, but just a reviewer who like many others did receive a few watches in exchange for reviews
  3. Stands by his reviews, stating that Ginault watches are good quality at the price point
  4. Says he has asked his contact at Ginault John McMurdy for a statement, but has yet to receive a response. He states he will do a followup video to share a response if received
  5. Says he is not certain of the claim that it was the same person at TC and Ginault
  6. Shares his understanding / interpretation of Ginault’s parts sourcing and claim to be made in the USA
Watch for yourself here:

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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by Deepdweller »

watchpalooza wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:50 am Not seeing the issue with SEO, but I do see a few “controversy” articles and this forum come up on the first page. Here is a response video released today from Guy (JustBlueFish) that came up...is also interesting. Main points he makes:
  1. He claims no knowledge of counterfeiting activities, but downplays them by saying if they did happen he considers moving into a “legitimate” business as a positive change
  2. Says he is not a brand schill, but just a reviewer who like many others did receive a few watches in exchange for reviews
  3. Stands by his reviews, stating that Ginault watches are good quality at the price point
  4. Says he has asked his contact at Ginault John McMurdy for a statement, but has yet to receive a response. He states he will do a followup video to share a response if received
  5. Says he is not certain of the claim that it was the same person at TC and Ginault
  6. Shares his understanding / interpretation of Ginault’s parts sourcing and claim to be made in the USA
Watch for yourself here:
Have you set the filter to "Past 24 hours"? They're all on the second page and all the pages after that.

I have talked about some of those points on reddit without mentioning the specific YouTuber, I've posted it a new thread here:

It's truly lazy to say it's all "unverified" when all the sources are there and all it takes for him to verify it is to check it himself.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by Techme »

Interestingly, when I type 'Ginault' into Google there is no controversy until the second page.

'Ginault lies' brings up controversy thick and fast.

'Ginault fake' brings up controversy, but also numerous comments from legit and nefarious websites linking TC to Ginault several years ago. Seems like the letter box evidence was outed a long time ago.

'Ginault Lexic' provides zero returns for me.

All searches on mobile.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by justin86 »

First post here, used to be semi active on WUS, but life got in the way.

I've read the whole thing, very interesting and some crazy detective work, but, in my opinion, the whole thing is really a shame to me.

I agree the "Made in the USA" part is wrong and deceiving. I agree some of the marketing language was off the wall. But, from what I've read, the Ginaults are one of the higher quality homages made. He clearly is talented and has crazy attention to detail, which is why his replicas were so revered. Isn't the point of all these Submariner homages to be as close to a Rolex without actually saying it for a fraction of the cost? Does it matter as a buyer that the maker USED to make replicas if you got what you ordered and are happy with it?

If his Ginault marketing would have said:
"I'm a second generation vietnamese immigrant. My parents came to the USA to escape the war and make a better life for their family. I'm a watch nerd and strive to make the highest quality, classically styled dive watch available. The watches are assembled in the USA from globally sourced components."
Would there be in issue then?

Maybe I'm missing something here.

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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by Techme »

It's the lies, deception, fraud and implicating others.

A lot of folk are against homages, but then tell many of the rest that their watch is basically a high quality replica that has been redialled with a hefty pay increase.

Did I mention lies already?

The guy is shady at best.

Of course some just care about the quality of the watch strapped to their wrist (I have have only heard positives regarding the quality) and don't really care. But on the other hand, some straighty-180's feel violated.



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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by MoT »

[mention]Deepdweller[/mention], I have two comments:

1. I have no issue with you commenting here, at the moment. Apart from failing to do due diligence in finding out if Vail and Bo really were involved with TC/Ginault/Whomever, I think your report is an eye-opener.

2. I will not permit anyone to use this site to launch attacks at any other site. Please refrain from asking the members here to do things at WUS or anywhere else that could have the potential in getting their privileges at those sites revoked.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by yinzburgher »

justin86 wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:54 am First post here, used to be semi active on WUS, but life got in the way.

I've read the whole thing, very interesting and some crazy detective work, but, in my opinion, the whole thing is really a shame to me.

I agree the "Made in the USA" part is wrong and deceiving. I agree some of the marketing language was off the wall. But, from what I've read, the Ginaults are one of the higher quality homages made. He clearly is talented and has crazy attention to detail, which is why his replicas were so revered. Isn't the point of all these Submariner homages to be as close to a Rolex without actually saying it for a fraction of the cost? Does it matter as a buyer that the maker USED to make replicas if you got what you ordered and are happy with it?

If his Ginault marketing would have said:
"I'm a second generation vietnamese immigrant. My parents came to the USA to escape the war and make a better life for their family. I'm a watch nerd and strive to make the highest quality, classically styled dive watch available. The watches are assembled in the USA from globally sourced components."
Would there be in issue then?

Maybe I'm missing something here.

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I actually don't doubt that he makes a quality product. And he is certainly not the only one making a Rolex Submariner homage. However, I think there are a few unethical practices here: mostly various lies and deception. And possibly some criminal activity: fraud, counterfeiting, likely trademarking and patent violations. I think your point here is that the counterfeiting is in his past even if the fraud and deception is not. I think that is a valid point, definitely worth talking about IMO. Once again, I'm far from a legal expert, but from what I have seen that matters little to law enforcement, investigative bodies, lawyers, judges. If you are an illegal arms dealer and you leave it all behind to start a successful, legitimate, ethical cupcake business, you don't get your crimes as an arms dealer forgiven and pardoned. You still get charged. And if the money from your gun-running is used to set up your cupcake shop, you probably don't get to keep your new shop. I don't know what the statute of limitations would be on counterfeiting but I doubt we have passed that time-frame. With regard to fraud, I think the legal paperwork that is still on file in Wyoming is likely to be considered in the present.....still within any statute of limitations. With regard to your hypothetical, I'm not sure I know what your asking. But if all the other present and past illegal and immoral variables were the same, then yes, I think there would still be issues. If not, then no. Sorry, I'm probably misreading your hypothetical. I think the more interesting hypothetical question for me would be this. If Tsung Chi was completely honest about his past and had either paid for his criminal activity or was beyond any statute of limitations, would his business have been more accepted to the public, more palatable to the watch buying community? It's long been said that the US is more open to redemption stories and giving people a second chance. That probably used to be the case. But I'm not so sure that it still is. I feel it may be trending on the opposite direction, at least for those in public life.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by mplsabdullah »

What I can't understand is why file things under the two forum names he (or whoever) used. How would that help the business (or scam) in anyway? And how do you file that paperwork under obviously fake names with no one thinking to check it out? And again why????
%99 of people do not notice or care whats on your wrist. All that matters is that YOU like what you see.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by yinzburgher »

mplsabdullah wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:13 am What I can't understand is why file things under the two forum names he (or whoever) used. How would that help the business (or scam) in anyway? And how do you file that paperwork under obviously fake names with no one thinking to check it out? And again why????
Yea, I'm not able to make much sense of that either. And I have a feeling that those are the types of things we won't find out for a very long time, if at all.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by TheJohnP »

Quick question for [mention]Deepdweller[/mention]

Have you reported your findings to the authorities?
I know you're doing your best to keep the blog posts up wherever you can, but seems that is information that needs to be reported.

Here's a link I found from Export.gov about reporting fake goods.
https://www.export.gov/article?id=Report-Fake-Goods

You may have already taken these steps, but since there was no mention of it in the blog, thought I'd mention it.
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Re: Here is why you shouldn't buy a Ginault watch, and more reasons why WUS is shady

Post by yinzburgher »

In a Ginault thread over on WUS, a member quoted a email he just received today. It's the most I've seen Ginault address the issue thus far.
Hi, Found this in my email this morning. Guess because i have pre-ordered the OR2 and im on the mailing list now.
Statement from Ginault:

Unfortunately, it has come to our attention a very serious accusation against our brand was made in the past few days by someone who didn't identify him/herself.
https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposin...thomas-caddell

We felt it is our responsibility and the right thing to do to inform you of this. The accusations were factually untrue with what we suspect as fabricated evidence. No surprise to the timing of this attack as this very same type of smear campaign was behested when we first launched the Ocean Rover I three years ago.
https://forums.watchuseek.com/f74/cl...l#post36693226

Instead of a yelling match, we focused on the quality of our timepieces, standing behind our products, and commitment to our customers. We believe these three pillars are the main reasons why the Ocean Rover is loved by so many.

We are conducting a preliminary investigation. Once concluded, we will present the findings.

We want all our customers to know that we run an honest business and have never done anything illegal. We are still on schedule with the end of Q3 to the beginning of Q4 delivery for our ORII. That said, if you no longer wish to purchase the ORII, let us know and we will process the refund within 48 hours.

Sincerely,

John McMurtry
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